I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen, Part 5

Previous thread.

WML is Forever!

[quote] Was Edith [Head] ever a MG on WML?

No, but she was on You Bet Your Life.

^ Let's try that again.

From the previous thread:

[quote]Silvers, Gleason, Meadows, Skelton (by the mid-'50s), Lucy & Desi, Burns & Allen, Eve Arden. And several like Silvers, Gleason & Meadows, Arden, Lucy & Desi were bigger on TV than they had been in their earlier careers.

In the 1950s most were known as movie stars and/or B'way who were now popular on TV. They were familiar names long before they ever set foot in a TV studio.

Many of them were half forgotten already…hence a rush to TV.

R6 that is not true at all.

Prove it

We're not used to such a combative tone in the WML threads, R8.

Of course, most if not all of those TV stars from the 1950s were from other mediums. That was my point when I said that most of the TV stars who were 1950s MGs were originally movie, Broadway or recording artists, not merely TV stars. Mere TV stars were not employed as MGs back then. As I said, Art Linkletter was the rare exception.

I think at this point we're all arguing the same point. Anyway, I promise I'll move on now....

[quote]Mere TV stars were not employed as MGs back then. As I said, Art Linkletter was the rare exception.

Actually Linkletter was well known for his radio program. He was a well known celebrity before TV.

R8 There is nothing to prove.

The careers of the big name TV stars of the 1950s listed in previous posts never paused enough to be "forgotten". Lucy as an example was in major films all through the 1940s and ended that decade as star of a popular radio program. Eve Arden also acted in film through the 40s and was hugely popular on radio. "Our Miss Brooks" was first a radio show before transferring to TV. Burns&Allen never stopped working from the 1920s. And again: The Burns and Allen Show was first a hit radio program that ran all through the 1940s. Same for Jack Benny. Dinah Shore had hit records. Perry Como was a recording star. And so on.

That was an interesting reply. Thanks.

R9 see, that’s how it is done.

Hedda as panelist 2

^Harriet looks stricken.

Edith Head gave great wardrobe!

I had a laugh when Hedda told the skunk breeder that someone once sent her a skunk.

Wasn't the sender Joan Bennett, r16?

The mermaid in the fishbowl looks a little like Judy.

I had to google what a steeplejack does.

And now, r19...you know.

Seriously?

From the brain of R19

R11: they were at the stage where they would have been forgotten. Most were B-picture people in an era when studios made fewer Bs. The neighborhood theaters that showed them were disappearing. Lucy was never more than a B-picture player which is probably why she wound up on radio,

R23 So you've gone from:

[quote]Many of them were half forgotten already

to

[quote]they were at the stage where they would have been forgotten

Very good.

I've really lost the thread of this argument.

But you still have the argument of this thread-so there’s that…

Roseanne could have played Louella Parsons.

Improbably, Elizabeth Taylor did play Louella opposite Jane Alexander's Hedda in some awful 1980s TV movie.

Yes, r26, but I can't really figure out what the 2 sides of the argument are anymore.

Oh, well.

Let's talk of Lamar, that Hedy so fair.

Why does she let Joan Bennett wear all her old hair?

The balloon seller in the Louella episode on the previous thread is handsome.

though he has serial killer eyes.

Louella was 80 in that episode so no wonder she seems doddery.

And that DRESS! What kind of material was that and did she know that it was covered in wrinkles.

For R28

Both of the first two guests in that clip were very handsome!

That poor London taxi cab driver in R13. They kept saying his name wrong. Things started off badly when Daly had to wrestle the chalk out of his hand.

[Quote] I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen

I’m really amazed IDTTOMOTWMLPLDK is still doing so well! Fifth thread!

Arlene is a Datalounge Saint -we can talk about her endlessly.

And we do!

Arlene is a character in Thomas Mallon’s great book “Finale.” She’s fantastic, always friendly, funny, and discreet.

Bennett moderates. How did he do?

Not well.

Sal Mineo

Did Phyllis marry up or down when she married Robert Wagner after Bennett died?

Robert F. Wagner Jr.!

Louella's dress had to be baggy enough so that it could conceal her ostomy bag.

I was distressed to see Louella, god bless her, hobbling around in 5" stiletto heels when she struggled to leave the stage. Some habits never die. I wonder how many years she had left.

Louella died in 1972, R47. She was 91.

"Louella" is a pretty cool name though.

Edgar Bergen.

Did they ever call Louella "Cruella" behind her back?

[quote]"Louella" is a pretty cool name though.

"Hedda" is cooler.

Louella and Hedda sound like they would be classmates at the Dalton School in NYC.

Dalton accepts anyone with $$$. Or real brains, if you’re not of their kind. No others need apply.

Maybe in 1913, r53.

Candice doesn't have that mid-Atlantic speaking voice Edgar has. Maybe it's all that radio he did.

[quote]Maybe in 1913, [R53]

You've very out of it. Those vintage retro names are all the rage among the well-to-do.

I can't say I've heard of any baby girls with the names Hedda or Louella recently or....ever, r57.

R58 Do you suffer from autism?

Dorothy on the TTTT panel.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Idiot at r59:

I'm not arguing that old-fashioned names are back in style. Simply that Hedda and Louella are not 2 of them. Nor soon likely to be.

And I'm sorry to see your ugliness attempting to penetrate these most civilized threads.

R62 In a world where retro names are making a comeback (see the names at R61), the comment "Louella and Hedda sound like they would be classmates at the Dalton School in NYC" is easily understood. Most people understand the words "would be" and the intended irony.

Neither of you are Dalton material.

Edgar Bergen 2

I went to Dalton...

I think the correct name is B. Dalton, R66. Did you find anything interesting in the remainders bin?

Another dummy on the panel in R65.

No, r67, they were doing a show and a friend was doing the costumes and I went with him one day to go through their stock.

Edgar Bergen was insufferable.

Grace Kelly on R65 as the second contestant.

Edgar and Candice.

It won't be a surprise to us that this compilation of WML uncomfortable moments is mostly Dorothy acting a donkey. I'd never seen the clip of Dorothy throwing shade at Arlene over the dumbbell accident before; it was beyond the pale even for her.

Dorothy's sneeze is like she is having a seizure.

That second intruder alert is scary. How can someone just walk on to the set like that?

r75, they all seemed to take it in stride, which seems weird now. I would have thought the panel, sitting there blindfolded, would have been particularly freaked out.

[quote] I would have thought the panel, sitting there blindfolded, would have been particularly freaked out.

It was a very different, more secure, time.

Dorothy on TTTT was very much out of her element. He first questioned had to be overruled by Bud Collyer. She was the subject of laughter - inexplicable to her - from the studio audience throughout the show. And her elitism was very much on display. Asking the (male) cop/hairdresser contestants about whether they knew the identity of Jackie Kennedy's or Princess Grace's hairdresser. And asking an American race car driver about European races. It appears that might have been her sole appearance as a TTTT panelist.

[quote]"Hedda" is cooler.

Hedda's real name was Elda Furry.

I'm not sure I wanted to see those intruder outtakes. The pleasure of watching the show is that it gives a cosy feeling as if you are a guest at a private party. To see someone break into that with the reality of the TV audience, where the intruders presumably came from, shatters the illusion.

I saw the cute singing garbage boys on Buzzr the other night.

R81, since, unfortunately, BuzzR is showing the same limited number of episodes of WML - & TTTT & IGaS, too - over & over again, you'll see them again in short order.

I guess I won't have to bother setting the VCR, then, R82.

R83, I was so excited by the BuzzR announcement that it would be showing the Big 3 - with original commercials!!! - overnight. Then I realized that the channel was just regurgitating the same limited number of shows. In the case of WML, all the shows are from the brief Fred Allen era.

Just go to youtube and type in What's My Line and hundreds of clips will magically appear leading to hundreds more. And mostly without commercials.

Did you spot the look Jane Fonda gives Dorothy after Dorothy says to her "Say something, Jane" in the uncomfortable moments clip?

Building on R85's post, please consider subscribing to the YouTube channel where most of the episodes posted here come from. This man has compiled and posted every episode of the show that is known to exist. There are even a handful where he's taken the original commercials from another source and edited them into the higher quality version broadcast on GSN. It must have been an enormous amount of work, and we've all received a lot of enjoyment from his efforts.

The Melina Mercouri intruder full episode.

Why do you think Melina puts her finger in her mouth in reaction to the intruder?

[quote]I was so excited by the BuzzR announcement that it would be showing the Big 3 - with original commercials!!! - overnight. Then I realized that the channel was just regurgitating the same limited number of shows. In the case of WML, all the shows are from the brief Fred Allen era.

And a lot of the "To Tell the Truth" episodes feature Polly Bergen, whom I always liked but find absolutely insufferable on TTTT.

Melina Mercouri seemed so non-plussed by the intruder you'd think she thought he was a part of regular programming.

Perhaps because she had never bothered to watch it before?

Do you think back in the day, many female contestants dreaded walking out to hear wolf whistling? Or not hear it?

It's such a weird and truly unlikely aspect of WML. Something I can't remember encountering on any other programs from the 50s and 60s, that vulgar whistling and cat-calling for non-celebrity women (many of which barely even deserved it).

Agree. What would it be like to dress up to the nines hoping that you might get the whistle, and then . . . silence. And no passes from Bennett or John Daly. (At least Hal Block was good for something; he'd drool over anyone.)

[quote]that vulgar whistling and cat-calling

It wasn't considered vulgar.

[quote] At least Hal Block was good for something; he'd drool over anyone.

As did Robert Q. Lewis, another lifelong bachelor who sat on the panel occasionally.

Was Robert Q. Lewis nominated for an Emmy for pretending to be interested in women?

Melina 2

R95, eh ... it was a little vulgar to be so boisterous about it. Gentlemen were quieter.

Did a representative of the show advise contestants on what to wear? I ask because often the women in, shall we say, less feminine jobs and sometimes those in professional jobs are dressed in skintight cocktail dresses designed to elicit admiration, stares and whistles. I wonder if this was the contestant's own idea to show that, even though she's a lady wrestler, she's "still a girl", or was it advice from someone at WML on how to fool the panel by looking girly even though she's a prison guard.

The wolf-whistling was decidedly vulgar on a show that prided itself on its good manners in every other context.

I often feel like I hear Johnny.....ugh, I'm spacing on his last name - the announcer - leading the cat-calls.

R100 You really, really don't get it. You are seeing it in the context of 2024.

There is a reason that the show that "prided itself on its good manners" did non frown upon the whistles. Because it was considered "good fun", it was playful. It was the norm.

It was the WWII and Post-War era of legs, breasts, curves. The Betty Grable pin-up. Girls got whistles.

Listen up and learn:

Johnny Olsen, R101.

*

R102 "Brother, you can't go to jail for what you're thinking"

By the time Garbo Talks was made in the 1980s the wolf whistle was decidedly not cool.

1943 go to 3:30

^ Sorry! Go to 2:30 in the video

On one of the shows Daly tells the audience not to whistle because it blows out the microphones.

Brian Epstein, Tony Bennett.

Never knew Paul Anka was such a little guy.

r102, why don't we see that kind of wolf-whistling and catcalls on any other 1950s TV shows - not the sitcoms and dramas, but the quiz and talk shows?

Misogyny reigned, I'll give you that, but I'm old enough to remember that behavior in everyday life (born in 1949!) and I assure you it was not much of a thing on prime time live TV anywhere but WML.

R111 When Dagmar made an entrance on her show, she got whistles.

As far as WML? is concerned: what other game show had women make a solo entrance, a walk and then turn their back on the audience?

[quote] I wonder if this was the contestant's own idea to show that, even though she's a lady wrestler, she's "still a girl", or was it advice from someone at WML on how to fool the panel by looking girly even though she's a prison guard.

R99 Arlene commented on more than one occasion when questioning a contestant that the producers sometimes tried to lead the panel astray with the appearance of a contestant being unexpected for their job. That may have included how the contestant was dressed for the show.

Ya think?

Paul Anka was on the panel for the Liberace episode.

Oh he punches Paul in the face at his exit.

R115: "Miss Kilgallen's Wigs by S Klein of Union Square"

Do we expect someone like Jayne Mansfield to get wolf whistles and cat calls?

Then again the first contestant got them too.

Rat hair!

In the '50s, even contestants who looked like the archetypal "spinster librarian" got wolf whistles. It was weird.

Arlene looks rough in that Jayne episode, without her white makeup. Maybe she was going for a more natural look.

All 3 ladies at r118 got whistles and the drummer at the end was the best looking. A timeless kind of youthful beauty.

That was 1966. How much longer would wolf-whistles be tolerated? Were wolf whistles employed in the syndicated version?

Jayne 2

Wig issues!

The ant houser maker is cute.

Oh boy the huge fashion model i fear got some derisive reactions.

[quote] Were wolf whistles employed in the syndicated version?

R123 Not as I recall. The entrance of contestants was accompanied by music. In addition, there was no more use of Miss, Mrs., or Mr. The syndicated version ran from 1968 to 1975. Things changed a lot from the mid-1960s during that period.

The first contestant here is female and she gets wolf whistles.

Hasn't that same horsediver been on before?

I don’t know about the horsediver, R130, but there was a fair amount of crossovers among the Big 3 Goodson-Todman shows.

I’m shocked! R131

When they said at r129 they had film of the young lady high diving into the water on a horse, I had to turn off the clip. I couldn't watch it. Would it be considered cruel to the animal nowadays? Is this sort of thing still done (I hope not)?

Yes the same horsediver is on R118.

In the R118 show she talks about how the horse is not pushed but chooses when it wants to dive.

Same horse diver but Arlene didn't recognize her just 2 years later??

Joanna Barnes was a most likable panelist on the syndicated show.

[quote] Same horse diver but Arlene didn't recognize her just 2 years later??

Maybe she didn't recognize her in color.

Joanna Barnes was a klassy bitch

When you couldn't get Dina Merrill, you called Joanna Barnes.

Dina Merrill?

Ghastly!!!

Kinda like Julia Stiles and Erika Christiansen…and whatzer name…

Does anyone remember THAT WAS THE WEEK THAT WAS?

Same time as WML, Phyllis Newman was a regular on that show which was kind of a forerunner, but far wittier and sharper, of SNL. It was the lone voice of political and cultural satire in the wasteland of early 60s primetime television and gave me hope that if I could graduate high school, and move to NYC it could save my life.

Phyllis would do her Barbra Streisand imitations on the show. And Buck Henry! I loved Nancy Ames, the pretty blonde singer who would belt out the theme song of the show at the beginning and end of each episode.

Jayne 3

Martin leering at Jayne is creepy.

Yes we know R144 jayzus—scroll the thread at least

Sophia Loren also leered at Jayne. Loren later explained that she was afraid that one or both of Jayne’s breasts were going to pop out of her ultra low-cut dress.

Jayne 4

Y’all keep posting the same clips…OVAH and OVAH

If Martin was leering there, what did he do when he appeared with her in a Broadway play?

R134, Whoa! Hold your horses!

How many lady horse-divers were there in America? Here's one from 1961, and she was at least the second who appeared in the years I've watched so far (1955-61). The producers must have made a habit of inviting every woman (was it always a woman?) who did the horse-dive thing at the Steel Pier in Atlantic City.

In fact, it's funny how often certain jobs keep repeating and keep fooling the panel. In that '55-'61 period, we've had a couple of female dog-catchers, female garbage collectors, female pig farmers (why this is odd, I don't know), several woman judges, multiple people who are shot out of cannons and at least three men who design or sell girdles. You'd think the panel would catch on and start probing for these occupations ... or at least acknowledge they'd had them on the show before.

[quote]The producers must have made a habit of inviting every woman (was it always a woman?) who did the horse-dive thing at the Steel Pier in Atlantic City.

I remember the Steel Pier diving horse from my childhood.

Side note to R151: The other contestant on this show is Jacques Picard, who had descended to the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the bathyscaphe Trieste the previous year. This achievement turned out to be one of those things, like the space program and Kon-Tiki, that were constantly talked about in elementary-school-oriented literature in the '60s. As soon as he was identified to the audience as a deep-sea explorer, I said "oh, the Trieste guy".

Also, Picard was a very handsome man who's quite charming in this WML appearance.

Arlene wears a little Bo-Peep dress,

Some of the panelists have failed to recognize people who they have recently encountered—customs officers, flight attendants, etc.—but I guess they didn't pay attention to the "help."

Mitch Miller reminds me of Patrick Stewart.

Mitch is kinda hot.

Says who?

Guy Lombardo

Watching all these MG clips I'm shocked by how little time would go by before the same celebs would reappear, often only a couple of seasons would go by. But then, I guess each season probably had almost 40 episodes so that's a lot of celebs who'd have to be constantly rounded up.

[quote]The other contestant on this show is Jacques Picard, who had descended to the bottom of the Mariana Trench in the bathyscaphe Trieste the previous year.

What about Beebe's Bathysphere?

He was a tall one. He just had to dunk his head in the sea to reach the bottom.

[quote]Joanna Barnes was a most likable panelist on the syndicated show.

Except for the episode in which she stepped on the ping-pong ball.

The baby gorilla nurse gets a lotta laughs. Funniest is when Dorothy is perplexed at why she is being laughed at.

Shout out to Silvana!

Bennett and Arlene in color.

For weeks now, this post has consistently appeared among the top 20 entries on Datalounge, despite not having that many posts or replies. I wonder why this is the case, especially considering that some Datalounge posts have around 500 posts and buried?

Who was Galen and why did Dorothy hate him so much?

The horse tail braider in R166 looks like Sigourney.

r167, I think it's about how many "clicks" a thread gets, not just how many replies. If people are reading the thread, it's what keeps it prominently in the thread watcher.

It's Sunday......tonight on CBS is Ed Sullivan, then switch to NBC for the Cartwright boys.....then back to CBS Candid Camera and then What's My Line?......and then school tomorrow.....

Bennett was 72 in that 1970 color clip and still calling Arlene a "girl."

[quote] Bennett was 72 in that 1970 color clip and still calling Arlene a "girl."

Meaning he was born in the 19th century.

Calling Arlene a girl in that context was a sign of endearment.

Did Arlene ever love Bennett enough to call him a boy?

Does "dear boy" count, R175?

And he died in 1971.

Generationally, it was common for men and women to refer to women as "girls" well into middle age and sometimes beyond. Playing bridge or having lunch with "the girls" was a pretty common sentiment.

Arlene said in at least one interview that she was not a “women’s libber,” despite her being a working woman her entire adult life. Perhaps Arlene felt more comfortable with the old ways. The late 1960s and the 1970s were a time of great social upheaval in the US, and not everyone was on board with it. I believe that the lousy economy in the 1970s plus the counter-reaction to social change led to Reagan becoming president in 1981.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nevertheless, I can't imagine Bennett Cerf not taking great umbrage if referred to as a boy, even as some kind of compliment.

You people write like you trapped in amber.

No shit that men referred to women as girls. No great revelation —nothing particularly interesterstunb there.

* people, not preppie

If everyone in the world is divided into boys and girls - we're girls!

[quote]It's Sunday......tonight on CBS is Ed Sullivan, then switch to NBC for the Cartwright boys.....then back to CBS Candid Camera and then What's My Line?......and then school tomorrow...

Except for the 1963-1964 season, when I kept the TV tuned to CBS at 9 p.m. I was much more interested in watching Judy sing her heart out than finding out what was happening on the boring old Ponderosa.

[quote]Nevertheless, I can't imagine Bennett Cerf not taking great umbrage if referred to as a boy, even as some kind of compliment.

I think you're very wrong about that.

I was around back then. You weren't.

Everything is about context.

"Boy friend"... "Boys night out".... "Boys will be Boys".... "good ol' boy".... "Mad about the boy" (popular song) ...playboy...The Beach Boys....birthday boy...boy band...boy crazy....attaboy...loverboy....etc.

People didn't over think things. They weren't out to be offended as people are today.

The words "boy" and "girl" were sweet endearing terms.

Actually, I was around back then, r185. I was born in 1949 and was watching WML in its original first run by 1957 or so.

And all those "boy" references you mention, while certainly of the period would have never applied to anything about Bennett Cerf, not even playboy, lover boy, birthday boy, etc. Just try and use one of those terms in a sentence that would have spoken honestly about Bennett during his WML years.

Sorry, r186, but you're being silly.

I gave you a challenge, r187. Can you not rise to it?

You have given me no challenge, r188.

Is the pajama seller wearing a rug?

[quote]And all those "boy" references you mention, while certainly of the period would have never applied to anything about Bennett Cerf, not even playboy, lover boy, birthday boy, etc. Just try and use one of those terms in a sentence that would have spoken honestly about Bennett during his WML years.

I mention the use of the word boy to illustrate that is was an innocuous term.

"Bennett's a good ol' boy!"

" Oh, you know how Bennett is....boys will be boys"

"Bennett, John, Steve....you boys are such pros!"

"Bennet Cerf....the wonder boy of What's My Line?!"

"That-a-boy Bennett, you guessed correctly!"

"Bennett, Martin...I'll leave you boys to figure it out".

"Good job! That's our boy Bennett!"

Thank you, R166. What a contrast, and I don’t just mean color vs. B&W.

Florence Henderson: “I have to wait and see how successful the TV series is …" Well, Flo, have I got good news for you!

With that first contestant, all I could think was “stand up straight, dear, you’re on television.” She was generally sort of a blank person, although that could be nerves.

What was Bennett Cerf’s cause of death (August, 1971)? I can’t find anything on line except that it was “natural causes”. He’s 72 here, and while he doesn’t look older than his age, he doesn’t look healthy, either. He’s notably thinner than he was on the original, which is not flattering, and his skin is sallow.

At least Wally Bruner let the contestants get a word in edgewise. Between JCD's answering for them, sometimes without even looking to see if they've started to respond, and then "interviewing" them by telling a story about Toots Shor, some guests leave without having said more then a few words.

One instruction in any WML drinking game should be "take a drink whenever John mentions Toots Shor."

Don't tell me you bitches are finally done?!

Toots Shor is a name I associate with the likes of Frank Sinatra and Jackie Gleason -- not someone like John Charles Daly.

Everyone went to his Times Square restaurant.

Was Anthony Quinn doing gay voice?

I wonder if Rock Hudson ever came close to appearing as a MG, or if WML was simply a show he would never have considered doing? Except for his early appearance on I LOVE LUCY, I don't think Rock ever appeared on TV, not even a talk show, until he started doing McMILLAN & WIFE.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone here will let me know.

When would he have occasion to be in NYC, r198?

Are you serious R199?

That question could be asked of almost every movie star in America in the 1950s, r199. Most all of them lived in or near LA in that decade yet many found themselves on WML.

I would assume Rock did some sort of publicity junkets bringing him to NYC, especially when he was under long-term contracts with various studios.

Toots Shor on WML.

Wasn't Dorothy more of a Stork Club habitue? I can't imagine her hanging out in a saloon like Toots Shor.

Was Toots any relation to Dinah?

^ Or Pauly?

Rock did some TV appearances early in his career. I think The Perry Como Kraft Music Hall he did in 1956 was shot in New York.

But he didn't do What's My Line.

The Stork Club!

Interesting that they call the Chili Con Carne woman a salesman and not a saleswoman.

Dorothy liked places with music, like Basin Street East and hotel night spots like Persian Room.

Ah, the Persian Room...

*

True, Johnnie/R210. She was always the one to ask about hit records. Arlene was a jazz aficionado. WML's run coincided with the peak of cool jazz, but I don't think they ever had Miles Davis or Dave Brubeck on the show. Brubeck was in California, but he certainly must have visited NY many times.

I loved the live recordings of the era, like Lena at the Waldorf and Diahann Carroll at the Persian Room. They were aspirational experiences for me in high school.

Was Arlene really a jazz aficionado? I thought jazz was strictly Dorothy's thing. Arlene was into legitimate theatre music.

R214 I loved the Giselle MacKenzie At the Walforf LP.....and she was on the cover with her poodle.

Can't find it but there's a pretty funny clip of jazz singer Julie London as the MG having quite the tiff with a masked Dorothy.

[quote]I would assume Rock did some sort of publicity junkets bringing him to NYC, especially when he was under long-term contracts with various studios.

There were no planes back then, people traveled by horse!

I recall hearing that Gisele's poodle played Louise's Little Lamb in Gisele's turn as Rose in summer stock.

r213, I think most jazz instrumentalists would have meant nothing to most viewers. Dave Brubeck probably had a national profile, but not Miles Davis for that audience. If you watch WML, you'll see a lot of old timey folks like Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, Duke Ellington Vaughn Monroe. The "hippest" musicians I can recall as MGs were Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass.

My favorite Gisele cover...

Liips together, teeth apart ^^^

I call it her "Ew" cover, r222.

[quote]My favorite Gisele cover...

Did she go to her hairdresser and say, "Give me the Mamie!"

*

Gisele McKenzie, Dorothy Collins, Teresa Brewer. Kay Starr, Gogi Grant.......I don't think any of those great 50s lady vocalists ever rose to MG on WML.

Arlene is funny in R202 when she comments on Martin's appreciation of the female bicycle rider's figure.

Do you ever raise your voice in song?

R220, you're probably right. Dave Brubeck was famous because "Take Five" was a top hit and because much of his music is smooth and easily accessible to non-jazz fans. He was the poster boy for West Coast jazz (a well-deserved position - I love Brubeck and am not belittling him at all when I say that).

Miles Davis is extremely famous - perhaps the best-know cool/modern jazz artist - today, but perhaps was not that well known to the public in the early '60s. (Still, I'll bet Dottie and Arlene would both at least have heard his name.) I was projecting what I know today back to 1961.

R215, I based my comment on Arlene being a jazz fan on something Martin (I think) said in an introduction. Could be she knew nothing about it. Dorothy, on the other hand, obviously liked popular music, both jazz and non-RnR pop of the era. I can't fault her for that - I do, too. It's my go-to music for personal listening.

Miles Davis would have been well known to younger people--hipsters and college types. Brubeck crossed over more. He was more popular and respected among other jazz musicians than he was among critics. I like his Take Five -era music but I get that despite the complexity of his music, how lacking in emotional tone so much of it was.

And beatniks, r230. Don't forget beatniks!

Miles Davis may not have given a shit about shows like WML.

The Nervous Set

Diahann Carroll.

I was expecting a laugh when Bennett asked the baby rattle seller, "Can we eliminate nipples?"

R219 I think that's right. I was one of the pick up kids when she came through in GYPSY in Indianapolis during the summer of 1960. She was a beautiful and funny as she was on tv. She was very nice to all of us backstage.

After the opening night an audience member complained to the producers that one of the strippers said "Tough titty." The second night the line was cut. Giselle stomped into the producer's office and said if the line was gone, so was she. She said: "I didn't sign on to do the Methodist version of GYPSY."

The line went back in;

Of course, it was Indy where this happened.

Tough titty.

R236 I’m pretty sure that line didn’t make it into the film version, which had to play all over the US.

Did WML ever win any Emmys? Did they have Emmys for game shows back then?

[quote] Did WML ever win any Emmys? Did they have Emmys for game shows back then?

I don't believe there was such a category. I know that I hear repeated claims on IGaS that it was America's most popular panel show.

There were occasional allusions to awards like LOOK Magazine or People's Choice. But no Emmy talk. I think Daly won some for his other gigs as a newsman, but not for WML.

Seems amazing that Arlene, who would certainly be considered one of the leading ladies of early television, was never awarded an Emmy in her long career.

According to Google, WML won the Emmy for Best Panel Show (the category name varied over the years) five times in the 1950s. Here's Walter Brennan presenting the award in 1959.

^ That's *3 time Oscar winner* Walter Brennan, r244.

Yay! Thank you, r244 for doing the research I should have done.

R246 and Walter Brennan thanks the movie extras and the old rules for Academy Awards voting …

former boxer and beer salesman is cute.

Dorothy can carry a six-pack!

That beer salesman/boxing referee at r248 is one hot little fireplug! Very sexy dude.

Eamonn Andrews was so handsome. Until he smiled and showed his UK teeth.

Elaine May was just.....weird. But hilarious. Little did anyone there know just how far comedian Mike Nichols would go in just a matter of a few years.

Elaine was unique.

[quote]That beer salesman/boxing referee at [R248] is one hot little fireplug! Very sexy dude

Very handsome guy.

And Arlene's line of questioning was brilliant.

I'm going to Berlin tomorrow to follow up on a couple of leads, I'll only be gone a couple of days.

I don't know Nichols and May are not as funny as they think they are. He gives her some dirty looks at times but I wonder if that is part of their act.

[quote]Nichols and May are not as funny as they think they are

Heathen

Arelene's hair in that episode reminds me of Baby Jane Hudson's wig.

Nichols and May's funeral bit is still funny and it's the non-verbals that put over the best lines.

Dottie Lamour meets Dottie Kilgallen, with Ezio Pinza (starring in "Fanny" at the time) on the panel.

What's with the boos from the audience when the maternity dress salesman says he is from Brooklyn?

Brooklyn maternity dresses were considered low class, r259.

I hope Ezio didn't eat garlic before the show.

Dorothy Lamour was so sweet and lovely! I don't believe she's ever had a thread devoted to her in spite of being one of the biggest sex symbols of WWII.

[quote]being one of the biggest sex symbols of WWII.

Because of me, r262.

[quote] Dorothy Lamour was so sweet and lovely! I don't believe she's ever had a thread devoted to her in spite of being one of the biggest sex symbols of WWII.

Was she? Are you sure you're not confusing her with Betty Grable?

As much for comedy as her allure. Lamour was in the Hope-Crosby “Road” pictures.

In the final "Road" movie, "The Road to Hong Kong" (1962), Dorothy Lamour was reduced to a cameo, and Joan Collins played the traditional Dorothy Lamour role. Crosby thought that Lamour was too old to be the leading lady at 48, but Hope refused to do the movie without her. The cameo was a compromise.

That sarong put her on the map.

I'm glad they changed the intro from the panel already seated to the members entering and bowing.

Nancy Kwan.

Nancy Kwan one of the dwindling number of mystery guests still with us.

Genevieve. Had to look her up.

What do we think of the twink rollerskate tester?

Genevieve was one of those very minor talents who were talk show favorites because they were cute and chatty and imperfect English speakers, but had no other discernible skills.

Genevieve was definitely a part of the Famous for Being Famous phenomena, so popular in 1950s culture. Very hard to explain today but a mainstay of early television.

Arabella!

Annabella’s cousin?!

R274: It's a different kind of "being famous for nothing much now". All those reality people instead of the Gabors or Charo---the whole culture you attribute to the 50s was still with us for decades afterward.

Hermione Gingold was one of the chatterati, but at least she had a solid background as an actress and entertainer. And she knew how to carry on an intelligent conversation.

Hermione Gingold took home an Oscar!

Not hers, mind you, but she did get to accept.

Genevieve was a singer...

What all those Famous for Being Famous celebs could do was brilliantly converse on a talk show or panel, a lost art today. And not just about their latest project.

Who else remembers Reiko (Douglas), a frequent guest on Jack Paar's and Merv Griffin's shows?

^ The poor man's version...

[quote]Who else remembers Reiko (Douglas), a frequent guest on Jack Paar's and Merv Griffin's shows?

I do.

Incredibly Reiko got a full obituary in the NYTimes

^ By the way, in my opinion, the original Merv Griffin show broadcast from Times Square in the 1960s was the best TV talk show of all time.

[quote]Genevieve was definitely a part of the Famous for Being Famous phenomenon, so popular in 1950s culture. Very hard to explain today.

Hard to explain today? Seriously?

She was a singer, yes, but not a very good one.

R280 - she loves Paris because she doesn't have to comb her hair there.

My mother had a better Audrey copy-cat cut than Genie.

I love Nichols and May, but they were not funny in their WML appearance. I think possibly they were performers who really needed to work out their material and rehearse a lot, refine things in order to be funny. Regardless, their album is fucking hilarious.

^ nope

[quote]Regardless, their album is fucking hilarious

Which one?

Reiko? That bitch was neither delicate nor flower-like.

Arlene and Dorothy looked rough in this 1950 episode.

Why do you think everyone in entertainment was so afraid of TV in 1950? ;)

Daly wears a long tie as opposed to the bow ties he later wears.

r294 = The Rosetta Stone of WML

JCD and Bennett's bow ties were supposed to fool the audience into thinking they were in formal tuxes, suitable for the faux formality the game strived. But tuxes didn't photograph well (all detail was lost in a black void) under primitive TV lights and cameras and so both men often wore charcoal grey and navy suits instead.

Correction: The Code of Hammurabi

R298, but they weren't trying very hard. They could have worn midnight blue dinner jackets with satin labels and white dinner jackets in the summer. It was a halfway effort that, in my opinion didn't work. They looked like waiters. Business suits would have been a better choice, or else gone the full black-tie route.

In fact, I recently saw an episode with John in proper black tie because he was attending an event that same evening. I don't remember the specific episode, but it was probably from 1961. It looked fine; no lighting issues. Also, all the men at the Academy Awards, the Tony Awards and Emmys, etc., were in black tie, and they looked OK ... well, they looked OK by the 1960s. Maybe not with 1950 technology.

R277, not to mention all those “influencers.” If Genevieve were around today, she’d have Instagram and TikTok accounts where she pretended to give advice while really just being cute and ditzy. “Famous for being famous” is still very much with us. If it seems less so, that’s only because there are so many such people that no one stands out the way someone like Zsa Zsa did.

John Daly also wore a long tie for the first episode after Dorothy's death.

See.

Any WML experts who could confirm what I think - that there are only really a handful, or maybe as many as a dozen episodes of WML from 1950-52 that survive? But then most every episode from 1953 onwards?

r301, you make a very perceptive point. We are now so deluged with "celebrities" who have no reason to be famous, we don't think the phenomena is particularly odd.

Jonathan & Jack

Elsa Maxwell.

The R294 show must have been one of the early ones as the second contestant's line is housewife.

It was just the 3rd episode in the history of the show, r308. The first time Dorothy and Arlene had appeared together and before Bennett arrived on the panel. And a chore to watch! Louis Untermyer - yecccch. Maybe a good thing the Black List got him (just kidding!). Amazing that the network kept it on the air.

But MG Artie Shaw was even hotter than the beer salesman/boxing referee upthread.

The panel is so unruly in that show.

Artie Shaw had an amazing cock.

—Ava and every other hot chick near Sunset & La Cienegs

La Cienega

Everything about the early 1950 episode was unruly, r310. It's astounding that they kept up that nonsense of having the guests parade up and down in front of the panel and the stupid bit of each panelist getting a wild guess before questioning began for so many years.

And interesting that they introduced Artie Shaw as Mr. X, giving away his sex. But then Artie didn't bother to disguise his voice at all so......what the hell....?

John Daly was very good about not disclosing anything about the MG. Wally Bruner casually disclosed MG’s gender.

Is that Arlene doing the opening bit on the phone in R307?

And is the lawyer wearing fuck-me pumps?

R308, Artie Shaw was gorgeous. He was married eight times, including to Lana Turner and Ava Gardner. None of the marriages lasted long except the last one, to Evelyn Keyes. He was not an easy man to live with.

That episode is indeed a chore to watch, partly because the audio and image quality are so awful but mostly because the incessant, inaudible chatter from the panel. As for Arlene and Dorothy, they look much better in the 1962 episodes I'm watching now, even though they're 12 years older. Part of it is the better video quality, but a lot is the result of the softer, fuller hairstyles of the early '60s and, apparently, a decent makeup person. Did they even have professional makeup staff for that '50 show?

The biggest shock to me is how uncertain and tentative Arlene is. What a contrast to the cool, funny, confident Arlene from a few years later! Dorothy is the same as ever, though, and I notice John is already answering for the contestants even when they're perfectly capable of answering for themselves.

^^^Sorry, that's for R309

Elsa Maxwell looks like Marie Dressler.

Arlene's first show

R319: That's because she did in really life look like Dressler.

How did they get rid of the awful Hal Bloch? Was it a scandal when he was fired?

In the many intervening years, Hal Block’s name was mentioned only once after he was summarily fired.

He would have been canned the second he grabbed Miss America and kissed her.

R322 his Wiki page covers the show at length.

Geez glad they dropped those requests from the panel in the first shows. How humiliating.

[quote]Late in 1953, Block was hired as host of a television morning show directed towards women on WGN-TV in Chicago. He left the show after only two months due to an incident involving a group of paraplegics who had been invited to appear on the program. After traveling 20 miles, at great inconvenience, they were not used on the show. Block also "had difficulty with a doctor who accompanied them."

[quote]In early 1957, a sneak preview in Florida of Second Honeymoon, a new television show Block was producing, had to be cancelled because there were no prizes. Block explained to a local newspaper that he had bought prizes in a pawnshop across from the station, WTVJ, but the shop was closed before he could retrieve them for the show.

[quote] In February 1957, Block was found guilty of drunk driving in Miami Beach, Florida, and for not having a valid driver's license. At the trial the arresting officer said Block, who had been staggering, refused to take a Drunkometer test (the original breathalyzer), was belligerent and told the officer he would regret arresting him because he was "a big man".

What a charming and urbane gentleman.

First show.

R327: So he just evolved into a prototypical "Florida Man".

Phil Rizzuto is a cutie.

Hard to imagine a time in American cultural history when Hal Blockhead was considered worth hiring for anything. He wasn't remotely funny. A real pig.

[quote]What a charming and urbane gentleman.

Today he'd be a Republican Congressman.

Why didn't the other members of the What's My Line panel like Dorothy Kilgallen?

Mr. Block was a "confirmed bachelor," but none of us wants to claim him as "family."

And he died in a fire (or as the result of a fire.) But unfortunately not a grease fire.

Well, at least he had that lucrative tax preparation business to fall back on.

Kathleen Winsor

[quote]First show.

Dorothy aside, what an aggressively boring lineup of panelists. They make Sam Levenson seem entertaining.

Best selling author Kathleen Winsor was yet another wife of Artie Shaw, his sixth, This was in spite of the fact that a few years earlier he had castigated his then-wife Ava Gardner for reading trash like Forever Amber.

My god, those 1950 episodes are difficult to watch! Louis Untermyer was constantly calling for a conference and Hal Block was constantly ogling all the women. It amazes me how long to took for the series to get into its groove.

Untermeyer reminds me of Ed Wynn.

The Gloria Swanson episode has been posted before but I thought I would post again to look at it as one of the few 1950 shows still in existence.

[quote]My god, those 1950 episodes are difficult to watch! Louis Untermyer was constantly calling for a conference and Hal Block was constantly ogling all the women. It amazes me how long to took for the series to get into its groove.

It seems that the show began to settle into it's suave identity in1957 with the new clever animated opening with swanky music.

Oh, I think it was earlier than 1957. Or was that when Fred Allen died? I think by the time Steve Allen was a panelist the show had found itself.

Fred Allen dropped dead on a Saturday in March 1956. At his widow's insistence, the show the next night went on as scheduled.

Did Steve Allen directly replace Hal Block? I thought the game picked up considerably with Steverino on the panel.

[quote]Oh, I think it was earlier than 1957. Or was that when Fred Allen died? I think by the time Steve Allen was a panelist the show had found itself.

But it needed that new intro. The previous one was banal, corny.

The new intro was unique, ahead of its time for TV, as was the cool new music. It was a chic finishing touch. It establish an identity that carried on until the show's cancellation in 1967. Even the announcer Hal Simms changed his tone.

Dave Garroway

Dorothy reminds me of an aunt I once had. She was a very prim lady, sweet, and also very funny in her own way. But few people thought she was funny.

Dave had a sad ending.

1982 . . .

“Dave Garroway, the amiable, low-key television personality who served as the first host of 'Today' on NBC-TV, was found dead of a gunshot wound yesterday at his home in the Philadelphia suburb of Swarthmore. He was 69 years old.

A spokesman for the Delaware County Medical Examiner said Mr. Garroway had been shot once in the head, and that the wound appeared to have been self-inflicted. A shotgun was found at Mr. Garroway's side. His body was discovered at 9:30 A.M. by a housekeeper. Mr. Garroway's wife was the last to see him alive when she left the house at 8:45.“

Did anyone check J. Fred Muggs for gunshot residue?

Or Arlene? One more death on her resume?

R350 Never knew Garroway killed himself. I still vaguely remember him and the chimp on the Today Show.

Maybe his wife killed him.

Too bad Dorothy wasn't around - she would have been on the case stat/.

Do you remember getting the weather report from Estelle, r353?

Other early Today Show girls included Betsy Palmer and Maureen O'Sullivan (wonder if she was hired because of her previous experience with chimps?).

Don't forget Flo...

Merle Oberon wearing her white makeup.

Is it a coincidence that the first contestant is also born in Bombay?

Jack Lescouli!e! Now there's a household name from the past who has been totally forgotten!

The first episode with cow washer Cora Sayler aired on May 23, 1954. Also, there is a younger cow washer on the August 18, 1957 who stumps the panel again!

cow washer the first time.

Ted Williams was quite fuckable—he always had a sexy, dark side to his personality.

With a nickname of “The Splendid Splinter!”

Interesting to think that back in the 1950s, refined types like Bennett, Arlene and Dorothy would be very well-aware of the star athletes of pro football, baseball and prizefighting, even if they didn't necessarily watch those sporting events. Celebrity was a very different sort of phenomena back then.

[quote]Interesting to think that back in the 1950s, refined types like Bennett, Arlene and Dorothy would be very well-aware of the star athletes of pro football, baseball and prizefighting, even if they didn't necessarily watch those sporting events.

Sports figures were BIG celebrities back then: Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Rocky Marciano, Mickey Mantle, Johnny Unitas, Ben Hogan... everyone knew who they were. And there were the establishments owned by sports figures...places to be seen like Jack Dempsey's, Schacht's.

The other cow washer. And Zsa Zsa.

[quote]The other cow washer. And Zsa Zsa.

Which one's which?

Jesús —Ted was the most famous player of that time, other than Jackie Robinson. Of course they knew who he was. No surprise at all —there’s some misguided understanding on this thread of what it “used to be like.”

I thought Bennett was a big sports fan. I seem to remember Martin Gabel was.

Did Arlene make a homophobic joke about Arthur Murray to Zsa Zsa?

[quote]The other cow washer. And Zsa Zsa.

Did he wash Zsa Zsa?

I’m sure she did, R372. It was a very different era.

R370, who is the most famous baseball player of 2024? I sure don't know.

You might have a better chance of everyone today knowing a leading quarterback in the NFL, but I still don't think they would be as universally famous as Ted Williams was in the '50s. R367 is right. Major sports stars were as big as movie stars in those days. I don't think that's true anymore ... and certainly not for baseball or boxing.

For that matter, with the fragmentation of the media and proliferation of niche markets, even movie stars aren't what they once were in terms of total-saturation fame. In the '50s and '60s, we had a national monoculture that everyone was part of, whether they wanted to be or not. That's gone now.

Celebrity visibility was a different thing back then. YA Tittle, the star quarterback of the NY “football” Giants was an unrecognized imposter on TTTT, a New York-based show.

Spring Byington

R370 you don’t get out much?

Shohei Ohtani Is not only the most famous baseball player in America, he’s one of the most famous athletes on earth.

For R375 see above

r370, you seemed to have missed my point. Or perhaps you were actually just agreeing with me.

The panel hadn't a clue about Spring Byington, or what was playing on TV in 1957. That Bennett would think a woman might have been the star of one of the many current Westerns??

Spring was very gracious, nevertheless. Ernie Kovacs was an idiot. You could feel JCD's dread every time the questioning came back around to him.

[quote] Ernie Kovacs was an idiot.

Maybe, but responsible for the best line in the history of the show.

Ted Williams was the rare male MG who dressed casually for his appearance. Those boxy early 1950s suits did no one any favors. It's a testament to his hotness he looked so good, anyway.

The panelists had little time to watch TV, what with opening nights, movie premieres, and the killing of the occasional passerby.

R383, Ted Williams was a supreme asshole in his prime. Always rude and belligerent to the fans, even children.

Horrible husband, horrible father.

He was used and treated poorly in his final years by his son John Henry Williams, who died unexpectedly not long after Ted died.

Ted Lewis.

Is *everybody* happy?

[quote]Spring Byington

A lesbian, you know.

Tell me!

If you can believe Boze Hadleigh. Interviewed for his book on Hollywood Lesbians, Byington's lesbian lover, actress Marjorie Main, with whom she had openly lived in Los Angeles, declared that "...it's true that Spring had no use for men", despite Byington's marriage(s) and children. Byington was also linked in an affair with actress/writer Maude Adams.

[quote]also linked in an affair with actress/writer Maude Adams.

FAKE news!

[quote] If you can believe Boze Hadleigh

I'm going to stop you right there.

Who is believed more, Boze Hadleigh or Darwin Porter?

Byington appears to have Parkinson’s.

[quote]Who is believed more, Boze Hadleigh or Darwin Porter?

George Santos

Spring Byington was born in 1886 so she was 71 in that 1957 WML appearance. I'm really impressed by her natural beauty there. She didn't appear to be wearing much makeup and certainly didn't look like she'd had any plastic surgery. Quite lovely!

I think December Bride went off the air that year. Not sure if Spring continued to work much but I do remember her as Doris Day's mother in 1959's Please Don't Eat the Daisies. Spring died in 1971 at the age of 84.

December Bride was one of those sitcoms of the era that we watched religiously, not because it was good but because it was on. There was even a spin-off, Pete and Gladys, starring Harry Morgan and Cara Williams, who was touted as the new Lucy.

Well...she *sang* better than Lucy.

Harry Morgan gives the dirt on December Bride.

[quote] Ernie Kovacs was an idiot. You could feel JCD's dread every time the questioning came back around to him.

R381 If I recall correctly, the last time Ernie was on the panel it was obvious he didn’t give a shit, and he even put his head down on the desk one of the times it was his turn again to ask questions. I don’t know if he was drunk and/or if that appearance was during the time his ex-wife kidnapped their children, who had been put in Ernie’s custody after the divorce.

R399, From 1977 . . .

“Prosecutors dropped a wife-beating charge against Harry Morgan after he completed a six-month violence counseling program. The 82-year-old Emmy-winning actor, who gained fame on the "M-A-S-H" and "Dragnet" TV series, was charged last summer with beating his 70-year-old wife, Barbara, leaving her bruised and bloodied.”

Wow, hard to believe that, r401. He seems so genuinely sweet and utterly benign in that interview at r399. As hard as the interviewer tries to get him to say something bad about any of his costars or colleagues, Henry always takes the high road. I wonder if the wife-beating was caused by some kind of dementia? Sad, in any case.

[quote]I wonder if the wife-beating was caused by some kind of dementia?

I would assume so, r402. Previous incidents like that would have certainly leaked before he was 82.

Jack Dempsey

The rubber band lady looks like Angie Dickinson.

Anna Maria Spaghetti looks like Madonna.

I've been away for a couple of weeks and am only just catching up here... About two hundred posts back, someone mentioned Mitch Miller (of "sing along with" fame). I did a concert tour with him many moons ago. He was a very talented musician and a pretty fair conductor -but he absolutely reeked of cigar smoke. Standing on stage you could smell when he opened his dressing room door -he would be proceeded on by a thick, purple haze of smoke. It wasn't easy too sing through that!

Miller was hated by a lot of singers he produced. Rosemary Clooney was forced to sing novelty tunes like Come-on-a My House and Mambo Italiano, which she felt were beneath her. She was right, but made potloads of money from them.

That was my intro to Miss Uggams...

This service that you provide. Would Dorothy be more likely to use it?

Leslie Uggo

[quote] Mitch Miller ... absolutely reeked of cigar smoke.

And he lived to the age of 99.

Spaghetti 2

Ooh I like the French pot and pan maker.

He had a certain jenna say kwa!

What is going on with Leslie's makeup in R411?

Bennett to Mystery Guest: Would you answer possibly to the description Oriental?

Was Clark Gable ever on?

Frankly, R418, he was not.

But, why, r419?????

He couldn't do a funny voice, r420.

Eleanor Roosevelt couldn't do a funny voice either, R421. Well, she couldn't do a different funny voice from the one she already had,

Did Clark Gable ever appear on TV at all? I mean other than in one of his old films.

There were a few superstars like Gable, Cary Grant and the 2 Hepburns who simply never would have deigned to appear on WML. I think Marilyn Monroe night have in the mid-1950s but it just never happened.

And I'm pissed!

[quote]Bennett to Mystery Guest: Would you answer possibly to the description Oriental?

He was using the word "Oriental" properly.

Once.

Mickey Rooney 1

Ugh he's so tedious.

Well, I, for one, thought Mickey was genuinely hilarious there.

R429 = Judy Garland.

Nancy Sinatra.

Nancy seemed genuinely sweet' and modest. Did she popularize that two-tone bleached hair, was it called "frosted" back then??

I'm surprised they saved the final contestant for the end with so little time as he was the man who developed the famous Arlene Francis rose.

Suzy Knickerbocker.

I used to think the extra contestant got the shaft because they ran out of time. But they invariably got the whole $50 by default.

I think Nancy looks more like her mother than her father.

Hard as it may be to believe, Bennett and Frank Sinatra were long-time besties.

Frank was on the show but not when Dorothy was.

I believe Frank waited until Dorothy was killed....er.....dead.

What do you WML fans think of Suzy as a guest panelist? Do you think she fulfilled Dorothy's shoes as a bitchy gossip columnist? Or was Phyllis Newman a better guest panelist, bringing a whole other vibe?

It's believed that Arlene didn't care much for Phyllis but I wonder if she liked Suzy.

R438, So did Lauren Bacall. She did appear as the MG in the early 1950s, but then Dorothy printed information in her column about Bogart’s cancer a few years later, infuriating Bogart and Bacall.

Bacall went on as the MG to promote Cactus Flower in 1965 when Dorothy was still warm.

R436, Frank was one of Bennett’s pallbearers in 1971.

[quote]Nancy seemed genuinely sweet' and modest.

She's still that way.

Suzy K was actively annoying and overdressed. If Arlene disliked Phyliss, it might have been because Phyllis was even bubblier than Arlene and got a lot of laughs. Arlene wanted to be the funny one.

R443, Phyllis won a Tony Award, Arlene was never even nominated.

I loathed both Phyllis and Suzy. In fact, I always skip episodes with Suzy.

Arlene may not have had a Tony, but she was both beloved and remembered -can't say the same for Phyllis.

R436, they do seem like an odd couple. Perhaps he and Frank brought out different sides in each other than the public saw.

R440, it was Dorothy's job to publish gossip and news about celebrities. Anyone who does that job is not going to be especially popular with the people she writes about, except for the few she makes her special pets. See Parsons, L. and Hopper, H., neither of whom was exactly beloved in Hollywood.

R443, there would have been no room for both Arlene and Phyllis on the same panel, that's for sure. I wonder how Arlene felt about Kitty Carlisle. She was much more like Arlene in style. Perhaps Arlene didn't perceive Kitty as a threat because she was already committed to TTTT.

r446...

r446, if "there would have been no room for both Arlene and Phyllis" why do you suppose Mark Goodson kept having Phyllis back on the panel?

I think if it's true that Arlene didn't care for Phyllis it might have been that she saw her as a bit of silly giggling girl. Which Phyllis could be.

I've always heard that Arlene and Kitty were long-time bosom buddies. They seemed like they would have easily co-navigated through the social and cultural world of NYC in the 50s and the decades beyond.

R447 and R448, thank you - yes, Kitty and Arlene seem like they'd be good friends. That doesn't necessarily imply that they'd welcome each other on the same show as regular panelists because they really are similar types.

[quote]if "there would have been no room for both Arlene and Phyllis" why do you suppose Mark Goodson kept having Phyllis back on the panel?

Because she was young, pretty and, despite the giddy persona, a good player ...? And well-known and available, being in New York and not Los Angeles. I don't know how Arlene felt about Phyllis, but I don't think they make a good pair as the female panelists. Arlene shines best when the other woman is less glamorous and more intense.

In 1961, right after the Kennedy inauguration, and again in the spring of 1963, Dorothy was off the panel for a few weeks with no prior announcement of a vacation or other commitment. The first time, JCD said she had a "mishap" (I think that was his word) at the inauguration. The second time, no reason was given.

Was she drying out somewhere? I know Dorothy was a notorious lush, but sometimes it seems that she's overtly drunk on the air to the point of slurring her words. Even in the early '60s, that would have been a bit much for TV, especially for a woman. Was she told to sober up, at least for the show?

Arlene Francis and Kitty Carlisle were close friends since their youth.

Would one of those absences, R450, coincide with the birth of one of her children?

Odd, R451, since Arlene was a Boston girl & Kitty was from New Orleans.

No, R452. Her youngest child was born in 1954. These absences took place in the early '60s.

R446, What infuriated the Bogarts was Dorothy writing in her column that Bogart was near death in a hospital and named a hospital that did not even exist.

The truth was Bogart was receiving treatment for cancer, but was at home and he would remain alive for another year.

Gisele MacKenzie.

Fun episode! Lots to unpack in there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Laurence's London accent is so plummy.

Was a funny moment when Bennett said he was glad to see the newscaster as his wife was out of town.

[quote]Fun episode! Lots to unpack in there

Hilarious episode. Very layered.

I used to hate Phyllis because she beat Barbra for the Tony. Years later, I interviewed Phyllis and she was a doll.

Sometimes, Phyllis Newman had to do.

Indeed, r462...

Johnny Carson used to have Phyllis Newman on regularly when the Tonight Show was in NYC.

Once the show moved to California, he would have Suzanne Pleshette on regularly.

Bennett Cerf’s first wife, Sylvia Sidney.

This is a very good interview, her candor is refreshing.

Sylvia could do some damage if she punched you wearing that green ring.

The WML? producers would never book Sylvia as a Mystery Guest.

Her marriage to Bennett didn't even make it to one year. She says she was foolish to marry him and then foolish to divorce him.

R468, She also acknowledged that since all three of her husbands remarried and had long term marriages, she must not have been a good wife.

Laurence Harvey was certain proof that actors can be truly stupid. Or maybe he was just so self-absorbed he wasn't able to pay attention to the game.

John Wayne.

Oh the John episode jumps so we cant see him questioned much before he is guessed.

The Delaware Governor who manufacturers fertilizer is such a jovial man.

LOVED that interview with Sylvia Sidney! What a forthright, smart lady. Thank you for posting, r465.

Sylvia/Mame

Mystery Guest the gorgeous Virna Lisi

But do watch the second guest, a fellow who raises worms.

Go to 13:30 of the video (after his profession has been guessed) and follow the conversation.

It gets a little taboo for the era. Watch as John Daley gets so embarrassed. It's quite funny.

In the R471 there is a laugh when Joey Bishop talks about being pooped to the fertilizer man.

Virna looks like Jodie Foster with Eva Peron hair.

I believe it was in the first of these WML threads that we were discussing what a mid-Atlantic accent was. Well, if you want to see a perfect example of it, just check out the wonderful interview with Sylvia Sidney at r465. Best moment is when she says "a-tall" (accent on TALL) for at all.

WHET Verna Lisi?

By 1966, JCD, Bennett and Larry Blyden were all wearing sharp black tuxedoes.

Meredith MacRae was a panelist on the syndicated show. Are there any other examples of a parent/child also appearing as panelists?

Jane Fonda was once a panelist but I don't think Henry ever appeared as anything other than a mystery guest.

[quote]WHET Verna Lisi?

She had a long career in Italy. Lots of TV films. She kept her looks until her death at 78. Her last interview:

They spelled Gisele's name wrong on her card!

R482 - They had Dorothy's father as the MG once.

Was he also chinless?

I remember them misspelling Ann Sothern and Jeanne Crain's names, too.

Kitty and Arlene are responsible for Dorothy's death. I can't go into details but it was a prank gone wrong.

Henry and Peter Fonda were co-MGs. That must have caused some friction offstage.

That's some wig the Australian wine steward is wearing.

[quote]Kitty and Arlene are responsible for Dorothy's death. I can't go into details but it was a prank gone wrong.

Did it involve a round exercise weight?

the cameraman must have hated carol channings' dress.

channing's

Sophie Tucker

the mink trapper reminds me of Ava Gardner and Anne Bancroft.

Mystery Guest: Abbe Lane (still with us)

But what's interesting here is panelist Aliza Kashi...another one of those bubbly ladies with a foreign accent that game shows and talk shows loved back then. She was all over TV for a year or so...and then disappeared.

I think I remember Aliza Kashi mangling the English language as a frequent guest on Merv Griffin's show.

Abbe Lane was apparently a great friend of Barbra Streisand. IIRC Abbe had a baby in her post-Xavier Cugat very happy marriage around the same time as Barbra had Jason and they'd walk them in carriages together in Central Park before Barbra went Hollywood. Two Brooklyn ladies who got out and made good.

Yes, there was the language barrier, but Alisha Kashi was a terrible panelist.

My Jewish parents should've known something was off with me when, in the '60s, I, maybe then 8 years old, created the character of Rachel Rishon, an Israeli an Israeli singer, & had them interview me as her. I must've patterned her off of Alisha Kashi.

^ I still have your album of Hebrew and Yiddish favorites.

I saw you in the Catskills, r499, when you opened for Mickey Katz.

Aliza Kathi’s tagline was “Hello people!”.

Hello dere.

Rachel Rishon was no Molly Picon.

Who was, r504?

I'm wondering if Molly Picon ever appeared on WML. I know Gertrude Berg did and I think they even billed her as Molly Goldberg.

No she did not.

Maria Fletcher

Who?

r497 Bebe Gallini!

Miss America 1962.

Oh, of course.

The label is given as Miss America 1962 but Daly she is Miss America 1961.

Miss America 1962 was crowned in Sept. 1961, and so on. He was mistaken.

[quote] I think I remember Aliza Kashi mangling the English language as a frequent guest on Merv Griffin's show.

R498 Yes, Aliza seemed to be a favorite of Merv’s. I had completely forgotten about her until I saw her when I binge watched the WML episodes on YouTube. One thing I found funny about her was that she was almost belligerent about having trouble speaking and understanding English. Perhaps it was part of her shtick to get laughs.

Maria is still alive.

Yea, so are lots of other Miss Americas. (?)

Not me.

Someone should have given Aliza a sandwich - she looks painfully thin.

Abbe Lane.

Wasn't John Charles Daly once involved with the Miss America pageant as a host or a judge? Or did Arlene or Bennett perform those duties? Of course, in those days the pageant was very mainstream entertainment and one of the most anticipated television specials of the year. Was it on CBS?

I guess I should just watch Maria Fletcher's clip. My questions are probably all answered there.

Bennet twice was a juror at the Miss America pageant.

Cantinflas

Daly hosted the first televised pageant —when Catwoman was crowned. See upthread.

Would have thought hosting Miss America would have been beneath the dignity of the aristocratic Mr. Daly, political commentator, married to the daughter of a Supreme Court justice, and future head of Voice of America. Guess not.

[quote] Would have thought hosting Miss America would have been beneath the dignity of the aristocratic Mr. Daly, political commentator, married to the daughter of a Supreme Court justice, and future head of Voice of America. Guess not.

How old are you, R525? I'm guessing under the age of 60, because there was a time the Miss America pageant was a HUGE deal.

Oh I was there, r526, and it was a huge deal. But still tacky and not on a par with a political convention or International Summit. You didn't see Murrow or Cronkite involved in such shenanigans.

[quote] You didn't see Murrow or Cronkite involved in such shenanigans.

Well, you also didn't see Murrow or Cronkite hosting a game show.

After Bennett Cerf died in 1971, his wife Phyllis married former NYC mayor Robert Wagner.

[quote] But still tacky

Only through a modern lens.

Sadly, throughout the 1950s the title of Miss America was one of few venues for a young woman to become nationally famous and celebrated if she wasn't in the arts or professional athletics.

But I guess you had to be there to get it.

Years ago, the Miss America Pageant was one of the highest rated television programs of the year.

[quote]Well, you also didn't see Murrow or Cronkite hosting a game show.

I don't see the problem.

When Mike Wallace was Virginia Graham’s announcer.

This never gets old.

Ben Gazzara on crutches

Would like to see how the Senate Page Boy grew up to look like.

[quote]Oh I was there, [R526], and it was a huge deal. But still tacky and not on a par with a political convention or International Summit. You didn't see Murrow or Cronkite involved in such shenanigans.

During its 1950s and early 1960s heyday The Miss America Pageant was NOT considered tacky.

OF COURSE it wasn't "on a par with a political convention or International Summit.". No one said it was, and it's silly to even suggest it, but it WAS an esteemed organization. The show was prestigious.

Prestigious enough to have Douglas Edwards as the "anchor" at the Miss America Pageant from the late 1950s/early 60s reporting on the proceedings to the TV audience as Bert Parks hosted the show. Edwards was in a booth, while Parks was on stage and the show would switch between the two.

Edwards covered the show for 5 years.

Walter Cronkite proceeded Edwards as the anchor of the CBS Evening News.

About Douglas Edwards:

Holy shit, Ben Gazzara was hot, R535. I'm not sure WML ever had a sexier MG or panelist. He usually played smoldering, serious types, and it's fun to see him here being smiley and charming. I wish he'd been on more often.

Here's Ben as a panelist in 1959. Apologies if this has been posted before.

... and here's Ben in his (only?) other appearance as a panelist. This is from 1960, with Peggy Lee as the MG.

The one other time Ben was a panelist.

R538 has a little person jet engine inspector - he crawls inside.

Eddie Hodges still alive.

The livestock auctioneer should be up for Miss Frump of 1960.

Why not, r542? He's only 77.

Miss America was a big deal and they often did commercial endorsements, etc. Jackie Mayer, Miss Ohio was the 1963 winner and was on WML. She was a student at Northwestern--so no dummy---and used her winnings from her pageants to pay for school. She had a stroke a few years later and spent much of her adult life speaking for strike-related charities. They probably had her on too soon--Bennett guessed her right away.

It was a week after the pageant, duh.

[quote]Walter Cronkite proceeded Edwards as the anchor of the CBS Evening News.

Doubly wrong.

The word is PRECEDED. And Walter Cronkite SUCCEEDED Edwards. (Or Edwards PRECEDED Cronkite.)

And now I'm the face of CBS NEWS......fuck Norah O'Donnell.

When I was a little gayling and first watched the Miss America pageant the year Mary Ann Mobley won (was that 1959? Even earlier??) I thought it was the female equivalent of the Presidency.

She was crowned on the TV in Sept. 1958

I am a Northwestern grad, r545, and there were lots of dummies there in the 60s.

R547 Oops, sorry about that. Did not proofread.

That show at r540 with Ben Gazzara on the panel has Garry Moore as the MG and as I began to watch it I wondered if maybe he was a last minute replacement for a bigger star. But the audience gave him a HUGE ovation when he signed in and he was a funny and charming guest, if all but forgotten today.

And he hadn't even begun producing his weekly variety hour (which I loved as a kid) - he's basically there to promote it the premiere later that week. . So I guess his fame had at that point in time come from his morning talk show and I've Got a Secret at that point.

Garry Moore had had a daytime show and had been hosting I've Got a Secret.

[quote] So I guess his fame had at that point in time come from his morning talk show and I've Got a Secret at that point.

The Garry Moore-hosted IGaS was - unlike WML - a consistently a top 10 show during this era. A top 10 show in a non-cable, non-streaming era where there was mere three networks. So yes, he was a huge star.

R555, and his announcer and performer Durward Kirby was a household name, too ... a name that was often mocked (and misspelled as "Durwood").

And there was that talented girl who joined the show in 1959. What was her name? Oh, yes. Carol Burnett.

Anyway, right, Garry Moore was a huge star. Everybody knew who he was because by the late '50s television was ubiquitous. It's funny that people today remember relatively lesser known movie stars but have never heard of someone like Garry Moore, even though the latter was much more culturally important in his time, not to mention famous.

Here's a video of an episode of the GM Show from, I think, 1960. Unfortunately, it's colorized, but it's still fun. This is what our parents and/or grandparents watched in their millions, back when we had a unified national culture that everyone participated in.

Dorothy took over when Carol left.

I wonder if I've Got a Secret got higher ratings simply because it was on at 8 pm on Monday (or was it Wednesday?) as compared to WML at 10 pm on Sunday? I watched them both as a kid, loved them both, but IGaS doesn't hold up well at all now.

I also loved The Garry Moore Show as it introduced me to lots of Broadway talent. But unlike Ed Sullivan's show, Garry's show featured those stars in new numbers, not the ones they were doing in their Broadway shows. I adored the young Carol Burnett but also loved Dorothy Loudon.

[quote]I also loved The Garry Moore Show as it introduced me to lots of Broadway talent.

Including Dorothy Loudon

^ Sorry, I see Dorothy is mentioned in post R557

Also, in my own post, r560.

But that's ok, we're all just chatting here.

Moore gave Barbra one of her most important early appearances when she sang "Happy Days Are Here Again" on the show.

Only DL could fill nearly five threads on this subject

Yes, and ain't it grand!

Sophistication never gets old.

Mustn't forget the Kirwood Derby

The tuba tester in R540 is a jolly fellow.

Toni West.

It's hard to visualize this sexpot doing judo.

Endora didn’t like her Derwood

Surely we won't need a Part 6, will we?

Of course we will, R571! Like the show itself, this thread will go on forever.

Sophie Tucker 2

R570: Don't forget Endora herself, who guested on the later version of WML.

Garry Moore lets it all hang out.....

I had no idea that Sophie Tucker invented Chia Pets.

R573, Is Sophie wearing a Halston original?

Is that Sophie Tucker?? I thought it was a chrysanthemum!

Arlene was truly brilliant with her ad libs.

In regard to Sophie Tucker: "Which do your remember better, Bennett? The Yes or the No?

When I was a little kid watching Sophie on Ed Sullivan I thought she was just a dear sweet old grandma type. Was I surprised many years later to hear Bette Midler recreate some of her jokes.

They talk about her hat after Sophie is guessed.

They talked about that silly hat ad nauseum.

No one mentioned Rhonda's hat.

The millinery business must have been at its zenith in 1955. Lots of women on WML donning their finest that year.

Gloria Swanson's hat had jeweled tree growing out of it.

Those bumps in the veil make Gloria look like she has a disease.

^ Or warts.

Carol Morris Miss Universe 1956.

she is on IMDb.

Martha Raye’s hat @ 15:55 was odd.

I have to wonder whether the hat came with that teardrop jewel or if she added it herself.

[quote]Martha Raye’s hat @ 15:55 was odd.

It looks like she was wearing a lampshade. You know, for laffs.

Martha's hat looks like the ones worn by Lucy and Ethel in Paris.

Some sad news from the classic game show world: Roxanne Rosedale, the prize model from the original Beat the Clock, passed away a few weeks ago. She was sort of the original Vanna White, getting lots of press attention and magazine covers. She even had her own Roxanne doll that came with a tiny version of the Sylvania cameras she demonstrated every week.

Meh.

Roxanne doll

Were there ever Barbie versions of Dorothy and Arlene? Can you imagine??

There was a Shari Lewis doll...

Madame Alexander dolls never resembled whoever supposedly inspired them. They were all generic-looking. "Is this supposed to be Shari Lewis or Roxanne Rosedale? They all look the same." Roxanne Rosedale shilled cameras, so they hung a small toy camera around the neck of a generic-looking child doll and called it a day.

Part 5 is about to turn over all the cards. Part 6 may be found here.

600